Curse

pumpkin pie · May 19, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

leaving a "less important pvp" game to join GvG is bullcrap. huh i use the word bullcrap hope its not degrading or anything.

I don't GvG, but when ever there's a player missing, i am always able to finish what i was doing then before joining the backup position of a GvG match.

yesitsrob · May 19, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

leaving a "less important pvp" game to join GvG is bullcrap. huh i use the word bullcrap hope its not degrading or anything.

I don't GvG, but when ever there's a player missing, i am always able to finish what i was doing then before joining the backup position of a GvG match.

No, wrong, you can't... ATs start at a particular time - the game doesn't wait for you, if you're late, you miss the AT, so don't chat shit that you clearly don't have half a clue about k. When I used to gvg if I was trying a new bar I'd often take 5 minutes to get used to it in RA first, this is totally not a viable thing to do anymore because you can be stuck in a match for one hell of a lot longer, especially on the crag or something.

Red Sand · May 19, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You have to ask yourself this...If RA was originally intended to be a newb arena or a screwing around fast PvP arena, then why did they add glad points which added farming and brought a heap of new problems?

They added Gladiator points to encourage more people to play RA.

RA is the first PvP. New players try it out and get killed by more experienced players. With no reward, the only people gratified by playing RA were the people who got their kicks killing other players. This discouraged a lot of people from playing RA, and PvP in general.

By adding a reward for RA, more people played. That in turn made RA more competitive, instead of a hunting ground for players ganking PvP newbies for kicks. When it got more competitive, ie difficult to gank opponents, those same players would leave instead of fighting, in search of the perfect team and/or easier kills. Dishonorable discourages them from leaving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yea...as a patch to previously bad changes that simply adds more problems that weren't originally thought of.

Human's resist change. Gladiator Points encourage more players, Dishonorable encourages sportmanlike conduct. Neither change is bad in and of itself. Both encourage desirable behavior.

I believe that the developers knew that by adding glad points they were going to step up the level of competition in RA. I believe that they added points in RA to increase the number of achievement oriented players and reduce the number of kill oriented players. This increased the RA player base and reduced the number of players who get their kicks off of ganking newbies, which encourages more new blood into PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Dishonorable just prevents people from leaving a useless game and wasting those 6 minutes.

Dishonorable does not prevent you from leaving. Dishonorable prevents people from making a habit of leaving.

You said something about legitimate reasons to leave. Dishonorable does not affect people with legit reasons to leave. Let's say my wife calls me away from a fight: I leave and come back five minutes later, I can get right back in a game. I only have problems getting in games if I make a habit of leaving my team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Cool...but then why the heck did they add dishonorable (slows down the action) and glad points (promotes farming newbs).

You keep asking this question, I keep answering it. Both encourage desirable behavior and overall more players in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Take a player who plays RA once in a while. He leaves at the end of games if the games are going to take a long time to end. He might even leave a game looking for a monk once in a while. He only plays in RA if he doesn't have any friends logged on or doesn't have a lot of time. He can't go to TA because there is nobody in TA to form a team with and he doesn't have the time anyways.

Your hypothetical person has not stated a legitimate reason to leave a team in the middle of the fight, only in my opinion, self centered ones.

If a player goes into RA, they should plan on staying until the end of the fight. Yes, you'll have idiots, griefers, leavers, newbies. Yes, some people "forget" to bring a rez. Yes, you'll be the only DPS player on a field with 7 monks sometimes. It happens.

Leaving is a player based decision. If a player doesn't like their team, nothing stops them from leaving.

Leave, pay the penalty for doing it and move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystica

We spend hours trading.
More hours farming.
A lot of hours forming groups PvE/PvP whatever.
And probably the most time posting/chatting nonsenseon guru in local or guild/ally chat.

But when it comes to RA all of a sudden everybody is in a hurry.

On reflection, I think this is the best post on this thread. It was on Page 1!

DreamWind · May 19, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

By adding a reward for RA, more people played. That in turn made RA more competitive, instead of a hunting ground for players ganking PvP newbies for kicks.

I don't agree with this. If anything, RA is MORE of a newb hunting ground now than ever. To me, adding a reward to RA simply turned it in to a REAL farming ground where I'd easily make a guess that over half of the players are only there for the title. It is no longer its original intention by any stretch of the imagination.

I suppose you can argue that it brought more people to RA and that it is a good thing because of that...but I think it was for all the wrong reasons. Besides, TA is the arena that really needs more players, not RA. Why isn't TA getting any attention?

Also, just because something brings more players to RA does NOT necessarily make it a good thing. What if they added gold to RA? Or rare special items? You would see a FLOCK of new players, but I still think both of those changes would be terrible for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Human's resist change. Gladiator Points encourage more players, Dishonorable encourages sportmanlike conduct. Neither change is bad in and of itself. Both encourage desirable behavior.

Humans resist change when it is done to something that didn't have much of a problem to begin with. Personally, I think people are largely overestimating the amount of leavers in RA even after glad points and before dishonorable. Before both of those, there was almost no problem to speak of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I believe that the developers knew that by adding glad points they were going to step up the level of competition in RA. I believe that they added points in RA to increase the number of achievement oriented players and reduce the number of kill oriented players.

"Achievement oriented players" is quite frankly another way of saying title grinders nowadays. I agree with you though. I believe Anet added Glad points because they decided that their entire game was going to be based on a grind based title system, and RA needed a title to fit into that model.

Personally, I would much rather have RA a place where "kill oriented players" start out, because it is much more likely those players will continue into the higher levels of PvP where Guild Wars desperately needs them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

You said something about legitimate reasons to leave. Dishonorable does not affect people with legit reasons to leave.

I only have problems getting in games if I make a habit of leaving my team.

In theory that is true. In practice there are problems at times though (some have been stated previously).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

If a player goes into RA, they should plan on staying until the end of the fight. Yes, you'll have idiots, griefers, leavers, newbies. Yes, some people "forget" to bring a rez. Yes, you'll be the only DPS player on a field with 7 monks sometimes. It happens.

I don't really know how you can like this. I don't want to enter RA with the possibility that I might be staring at my screen for 10 minutes with nothing to do. What kind of fun is that? And it happens more than ever nowadays in my experiences at least.

I just played a session today where literally 50% of the games either had a runner and my team didn't have a snare (I was a monk so don't say I should have brought the snare), or there would be multiple monks with no damage whatsoever to kill anything. Many of those games went the full time. I literally went and got a drink one time and a snack another time. In the old days I would have left, but now I can't leave without fearing that I won't be able to re-enter. Am I really the bad guy for leaving these hopeless situations and looking to actually play a few quick PvP games?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystica

We spend hours trading.
More hours farming.
A lot of hours forming groups PvE/PvP whatever.
And probably the most time posting/chatting nonsenseon guru in local or guild/ally chat.

But when it comes to RA all of a sudden everybody is in a hurry.

Of course everybody is in a hurry in RA...because that is what it is designed for! Trading, farming, chatting, etc are all things that people enjoy doing and can do for extended periods of time. RA is supposed to be for quick entry fast action PvP for people that may not have a ton of time to form groups or do anything else. Dishonorable simply slows down the entire process. As I said before over and over...these things changed the point of RA completely and some people don't like it.

pumpkin pie · May 19, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

No, wrong, you can't... ATs start at a particular time - the game doesn't wait for you, if you're late, you miss the AT, so don't chat shit that you clearly don't have half a clue about k. When I used to gvg if I was trying a new bar I'd often take 5 minutes to get used to it in RA first, this is totally not a viable thing to do anymore because you can be stuck in a match for one hell of a lot longer, especially on the crag or something.

Then you shouldn't be doing something else before an obviously very important match to you. You should already be familiar with your bar. if its a new bar your guild should have practice with their alliance before hand.

I always finished a game even if I am teamed up with crappy players (maybe they are not, but during that time causing everyone to die) and If I can't make it as a backup, I will inform guild that I can't make it, but if I can I always wait till the end before leaving.

Bryant Again · May 19, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

I'll say that I find the dishonorable hex a good idea, but implementating glad points into RA was not. That's for a different discussion, though.

Red Sand · May 19, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't agree with this.

You don't have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I suppose you can argue that it brought more people to RA and that it is a good thing because of that...but I think it was for all the wrong reasons. Besides, TA is the arena that really needs more players, not RA. Why isn't TA getting any attention?

Because not enough people have made good complaints about TA not having a decent population. If you are successful in TA, it is because you bring your team there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Also, just because something brings more players to RA does NOT necessarily make it a good thing.

When you are running a Multiplayer Online Competitive RPG, more players means more money. Changes to code are not free and the changes to add points to RA were obviously added to make the most number of people happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Humans resist change when it is done to something that didn't have much of a problem to begin with. Personally, I think people are largely overestimating the amount of leavers in RA even after glad points and before dishonorable. Before both of those, there was almost no problem to speak of.

Adding dishonorable would not have been added if the problem was as minor as you believe. Contrary to popular belief, the squeaky wheel only gets greased if you can't afford NOT to grease it.

Quote:

Personally, I would much rather have RA a place where "kill oriented players" start out, because it is much more likely those players will continue into the higher levels of PvP where Guild Wars desperately needs them.

That is because you are likely a kill oriented player, and the type of player that Glad Points and Dishonorable were targeted against.

Quote:

I don't really know how you can like this. I don't want to enter RA with the possibility that I might be staring at my screen for 10 minutes with nothing to do. What kind of fun is that?

I really don't care one way or the other. I accept it. This is probably because I am neither a killer nor an achiever: I'm an explorer. I'll watch a griefer and learn how to kill him next time. I go and get a drink, or take a leak if I can't stand to wait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I literally went and got a drink one time and a snack another time.

See, that was a good use of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

In the old days I would have left, but now I can't leave without fearing that I won't be able to re-enter. Am I really the bad guy for leaving these hopeless situations and looking to actually play a few quick PvP games?

The old days... last year? Seriously, I sympathize with your situation, but I agree with the changes that the designers added because I think I understand why they made those changes, and believe that they did it for the good of the majority of players.

You simply cannot please everyone.

EDIT: Spelling errors. I didn't know that sympathise = sympathize in British English

Ctb · May 19, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Yea, I'm not going to sit and argue with you. It's a ridiculous thread full of ridiculous comments on a ridiculous topic and it should've been closed seven pages ago. I'm not disrupting anything valuable, so I'm not going to concern myself with my "tactics".

DreamWind · May 19, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Why is this stupid thread still open...

Because some people are making legitimate points that people like you are not adding anything to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

You don't have to.

So you are telling me that glad points didn't make RA a farming arena?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Because not enough people have made good complaints about TA not having a decent population.

There is a problem with this...there really is. Almost everybody I know who plays TA agrees that there is not enough activity or incentive to play there. The need for improvement is definately there. Honestly, TA needs more improvements than RA ever did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

When you are running a Multiplayer Online Competitive RPG, more players means more money. Changes to code are not free and the changes to add points to RA were obviously added to make the most number of people happy.

So why don't they add gold and rare items to RA? It would bring in loads of new players. Answer: it would be bad for the game even though it brought in more players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Adding dishonorable would not have been added if the problem was as minor as you believe. Contrary to popular belief, the sqeaky wheel only gets greased if you can't afford NOT to grease it.

Yea I guess. We could go back and forth on this forever with no point and get nowhere (which is basically what we are doing anyways). I'm just saying from my point of view, it was an overly loud rant from a lot of players about a relatively minor problem that came about through a previously bad change. I know many people disagree with me but thats how I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

That is because you are likely a kill oriented player, and the type of player that Glad Points and Dishonorable were targeted against.

Maybe. I was just saying RA used to be more of a training ground and the beginning of PvP for people to move to other PvP. Now it is more of a farming ground where people can stay forever and gain a title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I'm an explorer. I'll watch a griefer and learn how to kill him next time. I go and get a drink, or take a leak if I can't stand to wait.

Fair enough. But being random arenas, there are just a lot of situations where there is literally nothing you can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

The old days... last year? Seriously, I sympathise with your situation, but I agree with the changes that the designers added because I think I understand why they made those changes, and believe that they did it for the good of the majority of players.

I consider the old days any time before changes were made to Guild Wars that I believe made the game worse. And that was a lot of times, even though I still like the game today. BUT I suppose I am in the minority, and if the majority is happy with how the game is now compared to where it used to be, than so be it. Life goes on.

Maria The Princess · May 19, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Which simply shows my earlier point that a lot of people did not want changes. Some people posting in this thread want you to believe that somehow everybody is happy with things.

yes, but even tough the thread was closed in about 2 hours or so cuz of flaming, i guess Anet had the same idea as me

i bet most of teh people complaining are those who tend to leave a match if they see 2 mesmers on the team or leech factions in AB/RA. its there for a good purpose whether people like it or not.

Red Sand · May 19, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So you are telling me that glad points didn't make RA a farming arena?

I said that adding a reward (gladiator points) was instituted to increase the PvP player base. Human nature being what it is, some of the players, perhaps most of them, are farming points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is a problem with this...there really is. Almost everybody I know who plays TA agrees that there is not enough activity or incentive to play there. The need for improvement is definately there. Honestly, TA needs more improvements than RA ever did.

I agree that TA needs improvement, but the changes applied to RA were necessary for the health of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So why don't they add gold and rare items to RA? It would bring in loads of new players. Answer: it would be bad for the game even though it brought in more players.

Those changes would bring in more players into PvP at the expense of play on the PvE side. The developers have enough trouble keeping PvE'rs happy as it is, don't you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I know many people disagree with me but thats how I see it.

I understand that. I'm just trying to show you that the picture is a lot bigger if you step away from how change effects you and look at it on how it effects everyone.

Itokaru · May 19, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I don't mind people getting hexed for leaving. But what pisses me off is when people DON'T report leechers. I always report them, but because my team is too lazy, I'm the only one reporting and therefore get dishonor points. You should be able to /report people after everyone has died, because people are generally too busy fighting to report the leecher before they lose.

MarlinBackna · May 19, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I consider the old days any time before changes were made to Guild Wars that I believe made the game worse. And that was a lot of times, even though I still like the game today. BUT I suppose I am in the minority, and if the majority is happy with how the game is now compared to where it used to be, than so be it. Life goes on.

I think actually the opposite, at least on Guru. There are many here that are clearly against directions GW went, and even some as brazen enough to shamelessly plug for games that aren't even out yet. *coughAoCcough*

But nevertheless, I find enough people in GW to still make the game enjoyable.

Giga_Gaia · May 20, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

/inb4lock

I'm glad dishonorable was implemented. It made lower end PvP playable again...

MoldyRiceFrenzy · May 20, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

i find that if u want better teams, u just go to international for ra.

DreamWind · May 20, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I said that adding a reward (gladiator points) was instituted to increase the PvP player base. Human nature being what it is, some of the players, perhaps most of them, are farming points.

I think the act of farming anything should be left to PvE, but I guess Anet does not agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I agree that TA needs improvement, but the changes applied to RA were necessary for the health of the game.

Maybe. The problem though is that Anet makes plenty of updates that many feel are less important than making changes the game desperately needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Those changes would bring in more players into PvP at the expense of play on the PvE side. The developers have enough trouble keeping PvE'rs happy as it is, don't you think?

Keeping PvE'rs happy is the entire goal of Anet. I could probably argue that dishonorable was implemented because of the complaints of PvE players. I could argue nearly every change in the past 2 years of Guild Wars was to make PvErs happy. I'm glad people are happy. The only problem is when it is at the expense of people who liked the game better before the changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I understand that. I'm just trying to show you that the picture is a lot bigger if you step away from how change effects you and look at it on how it effects everyone.

Fair enough. The majority are happy. Anet succeeded (for now I suppose).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

I think actually the opposite, at least on Guru. There are many here that are clearly against directions GW went.

Maybe, but I am not seeing it. For me personally, I think this game was 10x better 2-3 years ago, and that isn't due to boredom. Most of the people I know who quit Guild Wars quit due to changes that they hated in the game rather than being bored of the game. That says A LOT.

Red Sonya · May 20, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I agree with Red Sand, Dreamwind is only speculating HIS reasons and opinions which are clearly wrong. He has no clue what Anets focus and intentions are. Red makes solid points that are more akin to the reality of the dishonor system and why more people play RA now.

DreamWind · May 20, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I agree with Red Sand, Dreamwind is only speculating HIS reasons and opinions which are clearly wrong. He has no clue what Anets focus and intentions are. Red makes solid points that are more akin to the reality of the dishonor system and why more people play RA now.

How can an opinion be wrong? Anyways, of course I know what Anets focus and intentions are...it is clear as day. Their intention was to change the game (and in this case RA) completely, and they did the job. I don't think it is a good thing, but whether or not that is true is up for debate.

Fril Estelin · May 20, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

How can an opinion be wrong?

Short answer: the opinion of people that the Earth was flat IS wrong. Repeating something does not make it true.

Quote:

Anyways, of course I know what Anets focus and intentions are...it is clear as day. Their intention was to change the game (and in this case RA) completely, and they did the job. I don't think it is a good thing, but whether or not that is true is up for debate.

I remember the pre-Dishonor days on GWG and there were a lot of complaints about leechers and leavers. A lot. A bit like Ursan nowadays. So Anet did a bold move to implement such a system and it paid off. Of course, people on the bad side of the stick will complain, and some people will even propose idealised alternatives (that wouldn't work in practice).

I don't see anything fruitful coming out of this discussion, apart from making DreamWind understand the reality of the majority.

DreamWind · May 20, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Short answer: the opinion of people that the Earth was flat IS wrong. Repeating something does not make it true.

Um...the difference is that we can prove the Earth is round. That makes it no longer an opinion, but a fact. If I have the opinion that Guild Wars was better before certain changes, how can you prove it wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I remember the pre-Dishonor days on GWG and there were a lot of complaints about leechers and leavers. A lot. A bit like Ursan nowadays.

Thats because of glad points (I think I said earlier). People were given a farming reason to go there and so leavers increased a little, and complaints increased a lot.

And yes I suppose Ursan is similar to RA changes in a way. While a lot of people complain about Ursan, you have to believe that the majority like it thus Anet is not changing it. You then have to ask yourself: Even though the majority of people like it, is it good for the game? I say no to both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So Anet did a bold move to implement such a system and it paid off.

Did it? Is there a legitimate way to prove that it paid off other than saying "oh I see more people in RA now"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I don't see anything fruitful coming out of this discussion, apart from making DreamWind understand the reality of the majority.

I already said earlier that I know the majority probably like it. But does it mean the discussion is over simply because the majority say it is?